THE BID

Cryptocurrency & tokenization episodes

Explore episodes of The Bid, BlackRock’s investment podcast, covering tokenization, digital assets, cryptocurrency and bitcoin. Hear BlackRock leaders and industry experts discuss crypto investing, asset tokenization, blockchain in finance and what tokenization could mean for portfolios, capital markets and the future of financial infrastructure.

264. Is Tokenization the Next Evolution of Global Financial Market Infrastructure? Ft. Rob Goldstein, COO of BlackRock
Web Title: Is Tokenization The Next Financial Revolution?
Episode Description (350 characters)
Tokenization is emerging as a major evolution in financial market infrastructure. In this episode of The Bid, BlackRock COO Rob Goldstein joins Oscar Pulido to explain how tokenization works, why it differs from crypto, and how digital assets, blockchain technology, and capital markets could reshape investing and market access globally.
Episode Description (250 characters)
What is tokenization, and how could it reshape investing? Rob Goldstein explains how blockchain technology, digital assets, and tokenized securities may transform financial market infrastructure and expand access to capital markets.
Full episode description:
Financial market infrastructure is often invisible to investors, yet it powers every trade, settlement, and ownership record across capital markets. As technology evolves, tokenization is emerging as a new way to represent and transfer financial assets, raising questions about how markets may operate in the future.
In this episode of The Bid, Oscar Pulido speaks with Rob Goldstein, Chief Operating Officer at BlackRock. They discuss what tokenization means in practice, how it differs from cryptocurrencies, and why digital assets are drawing increased attention from investors, institutions, and policymakers.
The conversation explores how tokenization could improve access, efficiency, and connectivity across financial markets. Rob also shares his perspective on the coexistence of traditional financial systems and digital assets, the role of digital wallets, and the regulatory developments that could shape adoption in the years ahead.
Key insights:
• How tokenization creates digital representations of financial assets 
• Why tokenization differs from cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin 
• How digital wallets could expand access to capital markets 
• Why traditional finance and digital assets may coexist 
• What role blockchain technology plays in financial infrastructure 
• How regulation could influence the future of tokenized markets 

Keywords: Tokenization, Digital assets, Financial market infrastructure, Capital markets, Blockchain technology, Digital wallets, Investing innovation, Financial technology
Written Disclosures In Episode Description:
This content is for informational purposes only and is not an offer or a solicitation. Reliance upon information in this material is at the sole discretion of the listener. Reference to any company or investment strategy mentioned is for illustrative purposes only and not investment advice. In the UK and non-European Economic Area countries, this is authorized and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. In the European Economic Area, this is authorized and regulated by the Netherlands Authority for the Financial Markets. For full disclosures, visit blackrock.com/corporate/compliance/bid-disclosures.
<<TRANSCRIPT>>
Oscar Pulido: Most investors spend a lot of time thinking about what to invest in, whether stocks, bonds, themes, or sectors, but very few think about how those investments actually move through the system. Behind every trade, there's a complex web of infrastructure, systems that record ownership, settle transactions, and keep markets functioning. And for the most part, that system hasn't changed all that much. But now that may be starting to shift. 
Tokenization is challenging how financial markets are built at their core, not by changing what people invest in, but by changing how those assets are issued, traded, and tracked. And that shift raises a bigger question: If the underlying infrastructure of markets evolves, what does that mean for investors?
Welcome to The Bid, where we break down what's happening in the markets and explore the forces changing the economy and finance. I'm Oscar Pulido.
Today, I'm joined by Rob Goldstein, chief operating officer at BlackRock. We'll discuss what tokenization actually means in the context of financial markets, how it differs from crypto, and what it could take to build a more connected digital financial system 
Rob, thank you so much for joining us on The Bid.
Rob Goldstein: My pleasure. I'm excited to be back, and I think we have a whole lot to talk about.
Oscar Pulido: Rob, for the true aficionados of The Bid who are listening, they know the fun fact that you were the original guest on the first episode of The Bid back in 2018.
Rob Goldstein: Although I don't feel like you have me back a lot!
Oscar Pulido: We have you back when it's a really important topic!
Rob Goldstein: Ha, got it.
Oscar Pulido: And in that first episode, you talked a lot about technology, and I went back and listened to that first episode, even though I wasn't the host quite yet. I came on a few episodes later. But one of the things that you talked about is that investing was becoming a technology business, and I don't think anybody would've really argued with you back then, but certainly nobody would argue with you now. And today's topic is tokenization, which is certainly talking about technology and investing, but perhaps we can start with that term. I think when people hear that term, it means a lot of different things. What does it mean in the context of financial markets? 
Rob Goldstein: Yeah. And I think if we go back to the first, episode of "The Bid," even if we go back before then, so much of what we've done at BlackRock has been recognizing that, to a large degree, the investment management business is an information processing business. And as you think about it through that lens, there's been a lot of different technologies, and what these technologies typically do is, in some way, they reduce friction in a way that makes market access actually easier, better, faster, cheaper.
You could think about the mutual fund was a technology, we spoke about the ETF being a technology several times, and the token is just another technology. The token is a concept that effectively lets you have a representation of a stock, a bond, a fund, your house, whatever it may be, as a digital certificate that could be held in a wallet.
And it's very interesting because, my daughter just graduated college, and I coordinated the rent situation for the house she was living in. And we did it through Venmo. When I went to college, if I would've told you, you would have a device you hold in your hand that you do 92 other things and you stare at for, 12 hours a day, that there would be a device on your hand, and you would touch it And there was an app that let you just move money around. So, the other parents would send me the Venmo rent, and then I would pay people with Venmo. That whole concept would've seemed insane 32 years ago when I graduated college.
And if you think about it now, why can't you do the same basic concepts with regard to stocks, bonds, funds, and other things? That is the basic premise of a token. You have a wallet, you have representations of exposures, and you have the ability to move them in a way that's compliant, but importantly, in a way that's instantaneous and frictionless.
Oscar Pulido: And you mentioned also another important word, which was 'access', and I think what you're saying is that tokenization, gives investors more access to capital markets. At least that's a direction that we're headed in.
Rob Goldstein: Tokenization, in theory, not only gives more access, but I think you have to look at it through a global lens. So, obviously, when you sit in the U.S., you have one perspective. But if you look at it through the lens, for example, if you're sitting in India, you're sitting in Brazil, you're even sitting in China, the whole concept of access to these services is a very different concept. And your primary equalizer, no matter where you are anywhere in the world at this point in time, is that you have a phone.
And that phone is the interface for many things in your life, but one of the things it's certainly the interface for is the ability to manage payments, money, wealth. And I think over time, it's very hard to argue that direction won't continue. One of the favorite things that, we had in a strategy session among BlackRock's global executive committee, this was maybe three, four months ago. We were having a rigorous debate about this topic of tokenization. It's amazing because many people immediately gravitate towards this being binary. They gravitate towards tokenization is going to make the old capital markets be obsolete, or the old capital markets are so embedded that tokenization will never come to fruition.
The truth is, if half a percent every year for the next 10 years migrates to tokens, that is a gigantic number, and that is a number that people can't ignore. So, we're having this rigorous debate, At the time, I think there were $4 trillion in digital wallets, was the estimate globally. I said, "Raise your hand if you think 4 trillion in the year 2030 will be more." Every single person raised their hand. And then I said, "Raise your hand if you believe 4 trillion will be at least 8 trillion by 2030." Most people raised their hands. So, if you believe either of those statements are at all directionally plausible, you can't not pay attention to the technology of tokenization as another access vehicle
Oscar Pulido: I want to talk more about how tokenization and what I'll call the traditional finance system are going to coexist, but before we do that, if you were to take people under the hood of that traditional finance system and look to see actually how it works, what would people be surprised to learn about the more traditional way in which capital markets work, and what is tokenization then trying to improve upon?
Rob Goldstein: and I think through one lens, people would be surprised about everything, and I think through another lens, people would be surprised with the complexity. And when I say surprised about everything, if you're someone who's very sort of tech curious, and you go to the airport or at your doctor's office, wherever, and you really pay attention to how people are using technology, there's a lot of steps in the process. And I think with regard to finance and the traditional capital markets, there are a lot of steps in the process.
Now, let me be clear, the traditional capital markets are a highly efficient digitized ecosystem. Finance has been at the forefront of technology for a very long time. The volumes are tremendous. It's very global. So, finance has been highly digitized for quite some time. I think when people look at them coexisting, you’ve got to look at it through a slightly different lens. They may coexist, but they may be a little more distinct as you get to the individual level.
So, for example, my mom, I don't think is going to have a digital wallet anytime soon. That said, my kids may want everything in a digital wallet. One of the things that someone asked me, they, they said it would be a great idea you guys should analyze as these frontier AI companies are raising capital, some of that capital is to provide liquidity to employees. As these employees are getting these tremendous sums of money, and obviously the average age of the employee is younger than us -two old farts- what percent of that money is going into digital wallets? They said that would be a great thing for you guys to analyze. I agree with that. I have no idea how someone would do that, but I think it's fair to say that it's greater than zero. And when you look at the bifurcation, part of it is age, part of it is tech fluency, part of it is starting point.
Do you have an account at Schwab yet, or do you have an account at Coinbase? And depending upon where you have your account, you may not want to start a second account. That bifurcation and coexistence may be a little more individualized. Simultaneous with that, I also believe that this bridging strategy, one of the things that has been proven, and I think BlackRock has played an important role here, 
 So, if you think about it, our whole strategy has been how do you bridge the capital markets with this alternate universe of digital assets? That bridging strategy between the two, I think has been very important. I think what we're going to see is these environments coexist. There will be more and more bridging strategies where people will try to extract the value proposition, while at the same time certain individuals are going to prefer to be within a digital wallet, and certain individuals are going to prefer to be within a traditional capital markets ecosystem.
One thing that I find, quite remarkable is the whole narrative of tokens and the whole narrative of digital assets, if you go back five years ago, seven years ago, maybe even three, four years ago, the narrative was the capital markets are broken, and this is the new way. Now, the narrative is much more they each provide a value proposition, and depending upon who you are, where you are, and what you're trying to accomplish, one or the other or a combination of the two is the best way to optimize.
Oscar Pulido: And I think one of the examples of this bridge between tokenization and the capital markets, y- you mentioned Bitcoin and the ability to invest in it via an exchange traded fund, is one of those bridges in action. and that reminds me that we recently spoke to Robbie Mitchnick, who's head of digital assets at BlackRock, and Dan Morehead, who's the CEO of Pantera Capital, who invested in Bitcoin many years ago before it was a popular topic.
Oftentimes, when we talk about tokenization and crypto, they get lumped together as potentially one and the same thing. They're obviously very different, but the reason they get grouped together is because of the blockchain technology that supports both of them. So perhaps you can talk a little bit more about the difference between crypto and tokenization and why this distinction is important.
Rob Goldstein: This is where you have to look at it through the lens of technology. So, there are these exposure vehicles that you have on chain like Bitcoin, and we could argue the value proposition of Bitcoin ad nauseam, but I think it's clear at this point that there's a large enough community that views Bitcoin as having a strong utility, and increasingly a strong utility in a whole portfolio context, that let's put that to the side.
There's a series of technologies that enable Bitcoin that also enable the ability to tokenize whatever you could imagine. You could tokenize oil, you could tokenize oil in the ground, you could tokenize gold, you could tokenize this table, but you could also tokenize things that people have grown accustomed to using as important utilities, whether it be tokenizing cash through something like a stablecoin or ultimately tokenizing a fund or an exposure vehicle.
So, I think that, again, subject to a regulatory environment that enables it, but people are going to want to and will be successful building that whole portfolio, stocks, bonds, and likely digital assets as tokens on a blockchain within a digital wallet. That is certainly the direction of travel. I think we could argue again is that $4 trillion, $8 trillion, $4.5 trillion, but I think it's high conviction more than what it is today, and the amounts of money are so large that it's very hard to not be part of it. It's also, I think, important if you believe in the democratization of the capital markets, this is likely one of the best tools to enable that, both within the United States and more broadly.
Oscar Pulido: And it goes back to access, because I think if democratization of capital markets happens, then presumably that means more people have an ability to invest their savings in different asset classes and invest for the long term.
Rob Goldstein: It goes back to access, it goes back to convenience, it goes back to a value proposition, and importantly, it goes back to your phone. And I think there's a real question that could be, when you have me back in seven years again, eight years again, there's a real question, if you think about your phone in the year 2030, do you have more or less apps on the phone? I think if you believe you'll have less, then that means the apps you have are going to have to do more things. And if you believe that the apps you have are going to have to do more things, there will be an app that will be the ability to move money around, to do investments, to build portfolios. And I think the token and blockchain and the related technologies are important enablers in being able to do that.
Whether or not you even know that you just bought a token of a fund or you just bought a token of a stock, whether or not you as the consumer know that, that's effectively what will enable that fewer app environment that we're describing.
Oscar Pulido: Rob, you and Larry Fink, who's the CEO of BlackRock, wrote an op-ed in "The Economist" about this topic of tokenization, and you alluded to the fact that when Larry started his career, this was the 1970s, and it was very manual in terms of the settlement of securities when you bought and sold. and then you talk about this topic of tokenization, and I think even, the senior leadership of BlackRock has overcome some early skepticism of this trend and the direction it's going.
But talk a little bit more about some of the themes in that op-ed, the global nature of this theme and the continuation of this bridge between traditional finance tokens. 
Rob Goldstein: As a starting point, I was poking on how much older Larry is than me, Rob Kapito for many years would tell a joke that he's so old, he's seen the 30-year Treasury bond mature. Now that I've worked here for 32 years, I don't find that joke funny anymore, 'cause I've seen the 30-year Treasury bond mature. But importantly, even when I started in the mid-'90s, you’ve got to put yourself in those shoes. The cell phone as something you carried like a suitcase was a key innovation. A lot of people didn't have computers on their desks in the financial ecosystem. And the way trading was done was largely paper based. People would fill out paper trade tickets. So, things can change quite dramatically in a way that makes it unimaginable for people to think that's how it was done 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago.
And so much of what we're doing at BlackRock is because we've seen the path, there's no fighting these technologies that provide a better, faster, cheaper, more transparent value proposition. And that is fundamentally what we believe.
Technology could complement what you're doing today, and that is what we believe is going to happen. If I had more time, I would love to study this, but I think you could make a very strong argument that a key unlock with regard to digital assets, even with regard to the usage of something like Bitcoin, was actually the fact that it went from, " We're going to topple the establishment," to, "How can we create a force multiplier between the capital markets and this alternate universe, and this alternate universe and the capital markets?"
And once it was more collaborative, and how do we create a force multiplier together, I think that was a key unlock. And I think with regard to tokenization, it's going to be something very similar. If there was a new asset class invented, trading chips, which sounds like an asset class that will exist in our careers.
So, if you're going to trade chips, mem-memory chips, GPUs, TPUs, whatever it is, you could imagine that if you were starting from scratch, you wouldn't say, "What is the existing ecosystem and how do I plumb this through it?" Versus, "I'm starting from scratch. What's the best way of doing this, and how do I make that available to people?"
Oscar Pulido: And Rob, you've given the example of cryptocurrencies, and Bitcoin in particular, being available through a more traditional, financial instrument like the ETF. And then you gave the example of how a more traditional financial instrument being available in a tokenized format, which says a lot about the evolution of the industry.
But what does it tell you about the adoption of digital assets in investor portfolios and where investors are starting to see real benefit from this? 
Rob Goldstein: First, the adoption of digital assets in investor portfolios is still very small. Relative to what the ultimate opportunity is, it's still very small. And I think more and more what's happening in the world is it's getting harder and harder to create diversification. And the more degrees of freedom you have to do that, the better off you are.
The volatility, that's something many of the digital assets exposures can provide, can play an important role in the right amounts within portfolios, and it provides another ability to effectively optimize a portfolio. And we're seeing more and more clients institutionally, model providers, wealth managers, investing their energy in helping clients understand that. So, I still think it's quite early on the curve, but at the same time, I think that the more people understand it, the more usage will increase, not decrease.
Oscar Pulido: And if you were to look out from here, Rob, the trends around tokenization. for tokenization to be successful, what does that look like, and what has to happen from now t- for us to get there?
Rob Goldstein: Taking two steps back, I think for tokenization to be successful, it's all about two things. One, what is the amount of money in digital wallets- does it go up, and how much? And two, is whether or not you have access to tokenized capital markets instruments so people could build smart long-term portfolios through tokens in wallets. I don't think it would be healthy if the only tokens you have access to are only digital assets.
You're going to need a broader solution set. You're going to need more degrees of freedom. And assuming those two things happen, I think it will be successful if you look at it through a global lens. I think for it really to be successful, and I think for it to be successful in the United States, you need more clarity, of regulation, and you need people to have comfort, confidence, sponsorship, that we have a long-term regime as to how this is going to work, that people could then invest their time and their resources into plumbing around.
Oscar Pulido: And I think when people hear this, Rob, some of the terminology is very new, and it's not how they're used to investing. It's not how their portfolio is invested or how they access capital markets. But I go back to that first episode of you in 2018, and a lot of what you said has played out over many years, and so people should pay attention to some of the trends that you're looking at.
Rob Goldstein: Yeah, and I also believe people shouldn't overdo it, and what I mean by that is, I would argue most people have no idea about the detailed plumbing that goes into buying or selling a stock. Or buying or selling an ETF. for those who do want to have access to it, the good news is there's never been more transparency, information, so on and so forth.
So, you could become an expert but presumably, these technologies are about enabling an outcome, not requiring you to be a hobbyist or an expert in what we're talking about. So, I think it's really important that if you need to understand all of this, it inherently has already failed. What you should understand is you have a better value proposition. It's cheaper, it's faster, you have more transparency, and that app on your phone lets you do more things in a really simple way. 
Oscar Pulido: I think that's a great point. Most people watch TV, they're not concerned with how the TV works and all the wiring, but they are more concerned with the quality of the picture and just the content that's coming across.
So, Rob, when you first walked into, BlackRock in 1994, I wrote down a few things that you were saying throughout the conversation, which was 'on chain', 'Bitcoin', crypto, digital assets. I can't imagine that 1994 Rob Goldstein would have imagined saying those terms in 2026, but I guess it just goes to show things are evolving, they evolve quickly, and they'll continue to evolve.
Rob Goldstein: And I think that what I've learned is the obvious stuff wins, and the obvious stuff is often leveraging technology and things just getting better, faster, cheaper. If you believe in the technology element of this, it'll just continue to evolve and develop and become more important over time.
Oscar Pulido: Rob, you've also heard the term, quality over quantity, that's how we think about your appearances on The Bid. 
Rob Goldstein: That was a good save. They’re always smart!
Oscar Pulido: They're always very prescient in terms of what's coming, especially in the intersection of investing and technology. thanks for sharing your time with us. Thanks for doing it here on The Bid.
Rob Goldstein: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Oscar Pulido: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Bid. If you enjoyed the show and want to support the podcast, consider telling your friends about us or sharing an episode that really resonated with you. Make sure to subscribe to The Bid and follow us on social media so you never miss an episode. 
<<SPOKEN DISCLOSURES>>
This content is for informational purposes only and is not an offer or a solicitation. Reliance upon information in this material is at the sole discretion of the listener. Reference to the names of each company mentioned is merely for explaining the investment strategy and should not be construed as investment advice or recommendation. In the UK and Non-European Economic Area countries, this is authorized and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. In the European Economic Area, this is authorized and regulated by the Netherlands Authority for the Financial Markets. For full disclosures, visit blackrock.com/corporate/compliance/bid-disclosures
MKTG0626-5549156-EXP0627

Is tokenization the next financial revolution?

Tokenization is emerging as a major evolution in financial market infrastructure. In this episode of The Bid, BlackRock COO Rob Goldstein joins Oscar Pulido to explain how tokenization works, why it differs from crypto, and how digital assets, blockchain technology, and capital markets could reshape investing and market access globally.

259. “Cryptoassets at a Crossroads: Volatility, Adoption, and Changing Investor Perspectives”

Web title: Cryptoassets at a Crossroads

350-character version:
Crypto investing is entering a new phase as institutional adoption accelerates and markets mature. Oscar Pulido speaks with Robbie Mitchnick and Dan Morehead on volatility, portfolio roles, and how digital assets are reshaping capital markets and investor perspectives.

250-character version:
Crypto investing is evolving fast. Robbie Mitchnick and Dan Morehead join The Bid to explore volatility, institutional adoption, and what digital assets mean for portfolios and capital markets.

Episode Description:

Crypto investing is at a crossroads as digital assets move from speculative beginnings toward broader institutional adoption and integration into capital markets. As volatility persists and infrastructure evolves, investors are increasingly asking not what crypto is—but what role it plays in portfolios.

Host Oscar Pulido is joined by Robbie Mitchnick, Head of Digital Assets at BlackRock, and Dan Morehead, CEO of Pantera Capital, live from Miami at BlackRock’s Latin America Investment Forum. Together, they explore how crypto investing has evolved, why institutional participation is accelerating, and how investors are reassessing digital assets within diversified portfolios. The conversation examines the dual nature of crypto as both a volatile, risk-sensitive asset and a potential long-term diversifier. Robbie outlines how bitcoin’s unique characteristics—scarcity, decentralization, and independence from sovereign systems—differentiate it from traditional assets in capital markets. Dan reflects on early conviction in crypto and why institutional adoption may still be in its early stages, despite growing awareness.

Key moments in this episode:

00:00 Introduction
03:30 Early conviction in crypto investing
05:00 Crypto as a portfolio asset
08:00 Understanding volatility and cycles
10:10 Bitcoin vs. Ethereum and market structure
12:00 Institutional adoption trends
15:00 Crypto in Latin America
17:00 Retail vs institutional investors
19:00 Future of crypto investing and regulation
21:00 AI and blockchain convergence
23:00 Closing thoughts

Sources: Bitcoin market cap, Forbes April 19th 2026; Transforming Global Trade: Bitso Business at the Forefront of Blockchain”, Bitso Business 2025

Keywords: crypto investing, bitcoin, ethereum, digital assets, blockchain, institutional investing, capital markets, AI investing, megaforces, pantera capital, blackrock, dan morehead, portfolio diversification

Written Disclosures In Episode Description:

This content is for informational purposes only and is not an offer or a solicitation. Reliance upon information in this material is at the sole discretion of the listener. Reference to any company or investment strategy mentioned is for illustrative purposes only and not investment advice. In the UK and non-European Economic Area countries, this is authorized and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. In the European Economic Area, this is authorized and regulated by the Netherlands Authority for the Financial Markets. For full disclosures, visit blackrock.com/corporate/compliance/bid-disclosures.

<<TRANSCRIPT>>

Oscar Pulido: For years, cryptocurrencies were seen as a speculative corner of the market defined by volatility, hype, and big questions about their long-term value. But today, that narrative is starting to change as markets mature, infrastructure improves and institutional adoption accelerates. Investors are no longer just asking, what is crypto? They're asking a more practical question. What role should it play in a portfolio? where does crypto stand today as an asset class and what comes next?

Welcome to The Bid where we break down what's happening in the markets and explore the forces changing the economy and finance. I'm Oscar Pulido.

In this special episode, we're coming to you live from BlackRock's Latin America Investment Forum in Miami, where investors are gathering to talk about what's next for markets across the region. And one topic that keeps coming up, crypto.

Today joined by Robbie Mitchnick, head of Digital assets at BlackRock and Dan Morehead, CEO of Pantera Capital. One of the earliest institutional investors in blockchain and cryptocurrencies. We'll discuss how crypto has evolved into an investible asset, how institutions are approaching it today, and what investors should be watching as the next phase of the market unfolds.

Robbie and Dan, thank you so much for joining us on The Bid.

Robbie Mitchnick: Thank you. Good to be back.

Dan Morehead: Yeah, it's great to be here. Thank you.

Oscar Pulido: We are in Miami, we're here at BlackRock's annual Latin America Investment Forum, which brings together over a hundred investors from the Latin America region to talk about the trends that are very topical in the market today.

Dan, I would like to start with you. You're the CEO of Pantera Capital. You were one of the first institutional investment firms to focus on blockchain technology and cryptocurrencies. Back in 2013, I did a little bit of research and I think you got involved with Bitcoin when the price was sub $100. And you'll correct me if I'm wrong when we go into this a bit more, but what did you see in the market back then that gave you conviction in this space and what do you think investors still misunderstand about blockchain and crypto today?

Dan Morehead: Yeah, thanks. Great question. My career's been as a global macro hedge fund investor. Previously I was at Tiger Management looking around the world for asymmetric trades, and those are the trades that are really compelling. Where obviously there's risk, but the chance that if you do make money, you can make three times your money or 10 times your money, have always been compelling.

And in 2011, my brother introduced me to Bitcoin and I have a little bit of a libertarian streak, so, I thought this was really cool, but I didn't do anything about it. And then in 2013, Pete Berger and Mike Novogratz, a Fortress Investment Group, who were friends, asked me to help them think about Bitcoin. And I came in for a coffee in 2013 and stayed for about five hours. And I just blew my mind. I was like, okay, this seems huge. And they offered me an office in their building. They just kicked us out a couple years ago. So, we stayed for 12 years because it was just that compelling.

So, the case really is all of our financial systems, they're these extremely expensive, middlemen that take huge rents out of the middle, whether they're banks or remittance companies or what have you, and each of those are worth, collectively, trillions of dollars, extremely valuable. And a bunch of protocols that we now call the internet changed everything else in our lives, changed commerce, communication, everything else. They didn't change anything about finance, the last big invention is the credit card. Everything still the same. It's basically the internet coming to money and finance and, amazing amount of use cases and at the time I think all the Bitcoins on earth were about a billion dollars or $2 billion. And so, we set out to buy 2% of the world's Bitcoin because I thought that would be a, a great trade. And I still have that conviction. And part of the argument, and Robbie's seen the original investment memo, was this easily could blow up and not work back then. Now I still say you should be cautious, but it's reached the escape velocity. It's important. But at the time, almost nobody had any financial exposure to crypto, and we launched the first crypto funds in the world. It's still true that most people don't have exposure. The median institution has 0.0% of crypto. So, that's why I'm still so bullish. I think there's, decades more of this trade to go.

Oscar Pulido: You mentioned escape velocity, which I interpret as "this is now real. Th this is now more institutionalized. Th this is going to be a form of payment that is around" and I don't think you felt that way, maybe in the early days of studying this space. You also talked about the payment system and how a lot of things haven't changed. And Robbie, when you and I have spoken in the past about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, you've also talked about how, bitcoin and crypto modernize the way in which we do payments. So, Robbie, maybe coming to you talk more about this market, the asset class, where does it fit in diversified portfolio?

Robbie Mitchnick: That's probably the single biggest question that we get from clients on the topic today. Part of why it's such an interesting question is there's a bunch of dualities when it comes to Bitcoin and thinking about it as an investment. On the one hand, it's clearly a risky asset on a standalone basis. It's, still relatively novel technology. It's volatile. On the other hand, it has a very unique set of properties that give it I would say a distinct set of long-term risk and return drivers from just about anything else in your portfolio, right? It's global, it's non sovereign, it's decentralized, it's scarce, it exists outside of any one country's political, economic, fiscal, monetary risk factors.

And so, from that perspective, it has the potential to be, I think, in the long run, not just a diversifier, but a hedge against some of the potential left-tail risks that exist in a traditional portfolio. Now, what confuses that is because of those first couple attributes I mentioned, there's a subset of the market that treats this as pure 'risk on', and they almost trade it like levered Nasdaq, let's say, despite the fact, I think fundamentally it's very different from Nasdaq or other, tech investments. And so, what we've observed is there's this top layer of the market that tends to be predominantly retail, highly speculative, often trades with leverage, trades a lot and short term. And for them it's pure risk on beta play. But for the lower layer in the market, which is actually much bigger, but it trades a lot less, we see a lot more institutional investors, financial advisors, ultra-high net worth, for them, they see it as this diversifier, and this long-term hedge. And so, depending on the nature of the regime at play, it can behave, very differently and even opposite, to the way it behaves in other markets. And that generates a lot of questions from clients as it should.

Oscar Pulido: I think what you're saying is there's a lot of attributes that make crypto a candidate for a strategic asset allocation in a portfolio. But you mentioned the volatility. It can move pretty quickly, both on the upside and the downside. Of course, I think investors care more when it moves on the downside. That's what worries them. So let's talk about that because that's what we've experienced in recent months with crypto and Bitcoin is downside volatility. What's going on beneath the surface when that's happening and how do you make sense of what matters versus what doesn't when we're in one of those periods?

Robbie Mitchnick: Certainly volatility and cycles have been an intrinsic part of Bitcoin and crypto since the beginning. And, Dan's been, around it certainly longer than I have, but this is the end of the fifth cycle, in Bitcoin's history that it's had. And so that, now famous investment memo that Dan referred to - which should probably be in the investment hall of fame somewhere - that was the start of the second cycle, which is 2013. We've had five now spectacular bull market runs, followed by five pretty spectacular corrections. And in each prior one, the trough at the end of the bear market is actually higher than the prior cycle's peak.

And over time, each cycle has been progressively significantly higher then the last to the ultimate result that, Bitcoin is up, just shy of a million X since it first started trading on, exchanges. It's up about a thousand x since, you wrote that memo, Dan, you missed the first three 10 Xs though. Maybe next time, but it's an extraordinary run through this volatility and through multiple 70, 75, 80% drawdowns, and obviously since October, 2025, we had a significant draw down. Pulled back basically 50%. It's up around 20%, off of that but that's where it's so important to be a long-term investor in this space and to take that long-term perspective,

Oscar Pulido: Right, there is volatility in the space. We've talked about that in prior conversations But again, to reiterate the point, when we've seen these drawdowns, the trough of that drawdown is still higher than the previous cycle. So, the market keeps moving higher in the crypto space. And Dan, roughly two thirds of the of the crypto market around 3 trillion in market cap are things like Bitcoin and Ethereum. And these are the two that we generally hear a lot about. Why have these two come to dominate the space? And do you think that will continue or do you think it's going to broaden out? Or are we going to be talking about other cryptocurrencies as well.

Dan Morehead: So, I think it'll broaden. There were attempts to make what are now called cryptocurrencies for decades, Bitcoin was the first one to get it all together and right. And Bitcoin has won the use case of storing your wealth and sending your wealth across borders. It is amazing and I don't think anyone will ever challenge it. But it doesn't do a lot of other things like smart contracts, things like that. So, I think Bitcoin is incredibly important, always will be here. And Ethereum invented smart contracts, and then there are other ones like Solana that are, much faster and cheaper and things like that.

The way I like to think about it is, there won't be only one blockchain. But there won't be thousands, right? It's kind of like the internet. There are a dozen really important internet companies in, the next tier. The way I like to think about Bitcoin is, it's like Microsoft in the nineties. Microsoft in the nineties was the entire tech industry basically. It's gone up 10 x since then, but it's lost 90% market share in technology market cap, right? And so, think of Bitcoin like that.  It probably will lose market share as more projects come in line and other things, become useful.

Oscar Pulido: Robbie, what do you see, you talk to a lot to investors as well about the crypto space. Is it mostly a conversation about Bitcoin and Ethereum, or is it starting to broaden out?

Robbie Mitchnick: It's still pretty heavily focused on those two, and I think justifiably. If we zoom out and we think about the most impactful use cases of blockchain technology generally since it came into existence with the Bitcoin White paper 17 years ago. It is still Bitcoin as having solved three longstanding centuries old challenges around any form of money that had prior thereto existed, which is how do you create something that's difficult to increase the supply of and not have arbitrary debasement and inflation? Two, how do you create something that is easy to transact across borders, across banking systems, political jurisdictions, and how do you create something that's difficult to seize or to censor?

And Bitcoin though it's not a perfect form of money, solved all three of those centuries or even millennia old challenges. So, that's very significant and it owns that store of value use case, as Dan described, without any real competition at this point. So, there's a reason . And then Ethereum has a lot of competition for what it's doing, which is very different from what Bitcoin's doing, building out the, decentralized computing architecture, of the future with a particular emphasis on opportunities in our view, like stable coins and tokenization and decentralized finance applications. but as I said, lots of competition for that. Ethereum has a big advantage today as the largest, as, the network effects supporting that are significant, very large developer community. Every application typically, at least considers Ethereum as a starting point. Then there's this sort of long tail of assets, hundreds of thousands of different crypto assets. So, although I don't necessarily share Dan's view that Bitcoin's market share is going to go down, I think that you could make an argument that it stays the same or even goes up.

But even if it does go down, I think the important point to remember is that it's probably not going down relative to any, randomly selected token that you may include. It's that there's this creative disruption process as more and more blockchains and tokens get created, of which some will be successful and many will not. But you have to take a very discerning view. We don't think industry is yet at a point where you could credibly offer a broad based index product 'cause there's just not enough tokens, despite the fact there's hundreds of thousands in total, there's not enough that are at the stage of maturity and liquidity and clear product market fit that you could credibly make an investment case around.

Oscar Pulido: So it sounds like there's a first mover or first and second mover advantage that Bitcoin and Ethereum have established and we'll see more evolution in the space, but that could play out over many years and two people who are very knowledgeable in the space even have different opinions of how it could play out. So, I guess that speaks a little bit about how interesting a space that this is. But Dan, I mentioned at the beginning that we're at the Latin America Investment Forum, and so the audience, resides from many countries in Latin America. And so, we have to ask, how are you seeing the crypto space evolve in the Latin America region as compared to other regions? What similarities or differences are you seeing?

Dan Morehead: Citizens of Latin America have one huge advantage over Americans in seeing this as an opportunity. If you go to an American and you say, ‘Hey, we got a new currency that's better than the paper money you have.’ They don't often get it right. 85% of Americans don't even have a passport. They have no idea what foreign currency means. If you go to a citizen of a Latin American country. And say, 'Hey, don't trust your government with paper money.' They get it right and they buy Bitcoin. And Latin America's always been a huge place for us. One of our earliest investments was in Latin America because you don't have to explain why people would want to sell their national paper currency and buy Bitcoin. It's self-evident to them. So that's been probably the biggest one.

The other, thing that's important, Latin America, remittance are huge for a lot of the citizens of Latin America. And if you think about it, it's really crazy, what the remittance market is currently. There are gatekeepers that own these rails that people move money. For the migrant, that's a month's wages. They literally spend an entire month doing really difficult jobs in order to just pay the remittance company and their family only gets 11 months bitcoin and crypto stable coins. That's the answer. And already 10% of all US to Mexico remittance is going over Bitso. That is great. People in Latin America get that kind of stuff.

Oscar Pulido: What you're saying is if you live in the US like I do, and we use the US dollar as the means of exchange, the, we hear a lot about the US dollar and the exorbitant privileges that it enjoys and the reserve currency status that it enjoys. So, maybe it takes a little longer to think about how this thing called Bitcoin works alongside it. But in other parts of the world where your currency isn't the world's reserve currency, you get there a little bit quicker.

And Robbie, people are getting there quicker because institutional adoption of crypto is increasing and you're having a lot of these discussions with the investors who are, interested in this space. So, tell us a little bit about what those engagements sound like and what does this mean for this space going forward.

Robbie Mitchnick: Dan's absolutely right about that geographic disparity, but the US is, as you said, Oscar starting to get there. And the drivers of that are first you had in the US significant inflation for the first time in 40 years.

And so most people hadn't had any experience with this idea that, their, government issued money could lose value in a rapid way. and the second is, unfortunately, there's declining trust in institutions and governments all over the world, and certainly, that's very much the case in the US as well. we're seeing what's been this extraordinary, gradual trend, particularly around bitcoin interest, where quarter by quarter, the mix of our investor base that's focused on this, that's adopted this, is shifting more and more towards institutional and wealth advisory from, and investors.

End investor segment continues to grow each quarter, but the share continues to accelerate faster from institutional investors and from, the wealth space and the wealth space in particular a lot of barriers to access, had to come down. And that journey is probably 30% of the way along, there's still another 70% of sort of frictions being taken out in terms of who's actually just even allowed, to invest in this.

Oscar Pulido: And Dan, this reminds me, I was listening to something you had said, I think just a few weeks ago, and you pointed out that most times in financial markets, the smart money, quote unquote, the institutional investors, they identify something and then the end investor eventually catches up and invest in this area. And what Robbie just said, and I think what you said was that crypto is actually the opposite and maybe one of the few examples you can think of where many end investors got in early and now the quote unquote smart money is starting to catch up. Maybe talk a little bit more about that and again, what do you mean, what do you think this means going forward then?

Dan Morehead: Yeah, so I think that is the big opportunity is the success that we've already seen in our industries. Really just from retail and in individuals.  institutional investment is yet to come. Robbie's point about kind of barriers that were imposed by regulatory bodies or whatever, that's really held the industry back. Even some of the massive, Wall Street firms are just now allowing people to own any simple product like an ETF, that should have been 10 years ago, right? And for whatever reason, all that was held back. And so, to my mind, that's the opportunity. like we're just getting started with most people addressing this.

And I would say, it's really out of ignorance, is that I've been doing this for 14 years and I keep asking people for any well-written paper that's saying why crypto is not an important investment in a portfolio. There really isn't one. You get the Warren Buffet, "it's rat poison" lines once in a while, right? But you don't, no one ever actually sits down and writes a 20-page paper on why you shouldn't invest in crypto and that, that'd be my advice to any of you out there that haven't yet done it, spend a couple hours read about it. When someone actually spends the time and they're like, oh man, I really should put one or 2% of my portfolio into this. Because it, it might keep going up 10 x every couple years.

Oscar Pulido: Well, Dan, you have spent just yourself probably more time studying this space, you and Robbie together, so we have to ask, when you think about this space going forward, it's evolving quickly, but where are we going to be in the next few years? What are the developments that you're looking at?

Dan Morehead: Som a huge one is we were talking about the restrictions that have artificially held it back. The US SEC wouldn't allow IPOs for a long time. And great companies like Circle that we were invested in for 12 years couldn't go public. They're now public and we've had five companies in our portfolio go public in the last, nine months.

Another kind of example of that would be there are now crypto companies in the S&P 500. So, you have to have an opinion now. if you don't own any crypto companies, you're short the index. So, all those things are really good. It's just forcing people to have an opinion, and bringing people, into the industry because, it is an important new asset class. And I've actually seen this before I was the first asset backed securities trader at Goldman in the eighties, people thought I was crazy, I bought a lot of loans, right? But now everyone thinks ABS is a thing and emerging markets is a thing, commodities is a thing, Blockchain will be an asset class.

Robbie Mitchnick: Yeah, I think the convergence of this with AI is the most important thing because AI is the most important thing. And obviously I'm a believer in digital assets as Dan is, but I think, it would be foolish to try to claim. That digital assets is on a par with AI because nothing's on a par with AI in terms of the disruptive force that it represents.

The important thing is to consider what the interplay of those two forces looks like. And to me it's quite significant. and if we start with, value movement, if you think about the AI agent economy, which we're just starting to see, the beginnings of that, and I think it's going to accelerate massively. AI agents are not going to go get bank accounts, they're not going to use Fedwire or Swift or ACH they're going to use some sort of, blockchain based monetary instrument. Why? Because what is AI? It is machine data and intelligence, right? What is crypto? Crypto is machine native money. And so, whether that's Bitcoin or ether or Stablecoin or something else. That is, I think, the clear favorite to be the natural currency mechanism of that economy.

And then the other big element to it, which is less talked about, is in the disruption that's set to come. There's a lot of things that give value to something like Bitcoin, which is this global, decentralized, non-sovereign, scarce, asset that exists outside of these country specific risk factors. In particular, as we think about the pressure that's likely to be exerted on government balance sheets all over the world to support their citizenry through this, disruptive phase, that's a massive catalyst. Anytime you talk about money printing, debt deficit accumulation, people start to think about gold and Bitcoin as these, attractive alternative assets in that environment.

Oscar Pulido: I think if this room had seen that investment memo that you wrote back in the day, Dan, I think a lot of people would've been left scratching their heads. And what is Dan talking about? I think if we'd had this conversation even just a few years ago. The terminology was still pretty new to people and people were starting to figure it out. I do think that this is a topic that have become more mainstream, so people are starting to understand a little bit more about this space and this conversation and bringing both of you together has helped being. Has helped bring more transparency to the subject. Thank you guys for joining us on The Bid and talking about crypto, and thank you to the audience for joining us.

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Bid. If you've enjoyed this episode, check out episode 2 35 titled Gold and Bitcoin, why Investor Interest is Rising Now, and subscribe to The Bid wherever you get your podcasts.

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MKTG0426-5418050-EXP0427

Cryptoassets at a crossroads

Crypto investing is entering a new phase as institutional adoption accelerates and markets mature. Oscar Pulido speaks with Robbie Mitchnick and Dan Morehead on volatility, portfolio roles, and how digital assets are reshaping capital markets and investor perspectives.

Cryptocurrency decoded: Investing in digital assets

The Bid podcast
The Bid podcast /
Cryptocurrency decoded: Investing in digital assets

What does the future hold for cryptocurrency and how should investors be considering digital assets as part of a portfolio? Robbie Mitchnick, Head of Digital Assets, and Samara Cohen, Chief Investment Officer of the ETF and Index Investments business at BlackRock lend their knowledge and experience to navigate the story of digital assets.